making up fannish stuff, for posterity and beyond!

[sab]

All you all should be coming over to help edit fanlore.org. It's very easy to log in, and then those of us who toil over there would love some toiling help. For example, there's hardly any info on the "West Wing" page; come fill it up, and bring your favorite fics!

Also, for semantics purposes; help me with these questions below? Answer with the term you would most frequently use, or answer with the term you have most frequently heard if you don't prefer one answer over the other.

[Poll #1296784]

ETA: Comments! Keep 'em coming!

Love,
Sab

Comments

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

...except that multimedia has a well-known definition outside of fandom, so it's not a "fandom only" word. I've taken classes in it, taught it, and been hired to do it :D

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I think what Sab is saying is that "among zine fans, multimedia was the term used *to mean multifandom* and still is by some today" would be accurate. Not that multimedia is a term only used among zine fans.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest - I've been reading zines for decades, and don't remember seeing that used.

That could be my memory going through menopause, tho ;)

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Well, others are arguing that it was what they were called for decades, so. *shrugs* I'm perfectly willing to take that on faith, but if people are arguing that it's still a term in active use, well, then like I said above in this thread, [citation needed].

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

How about Agent with Style? I might not admire her business methods, but she is still soliciting submissions, publishing and agenting a lot of zines:

http://www.agentwithstyle.com/multimed.htm

You may need to click on the details of, say, "the brotherhood" series to see the fandoms listed, but you'll find mutifandom zines listed on a page labeled multimedia and no explanation that multimedia means multifandom; it's just understood that that's the way it is.

And fandoms covered include Supernatural, Numb3rs, Firefly, Stargate: Atlantis, Smallville, CSI, and so on. So it's not just old Professionals or Starsky and Hutch or Man From Uncle stories that are listed under the heading or in the collections, but recent ones as well. I didn't count the number of zines listed, as she never lets anything go out of print, but it is a large collection. Most people who have purchased zines have eventually bought one from her.

You can look at her full site here: http://www.agentwithstyle.com/

She includes a handy list of definitions, too, which includes the "multimedia = multifandom" definition.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Well, okay. There are 42 results for "multimedia zines" on google. (Yes, it says 493 at first, but if you actually click on page 5, it jumps back to 42.)

I feel like I'm being a dick about this, but: here are all the individual domains on the entire internet that come up under a google search for "multimedia zines".

1. knightwriter.org
2. hermit.org
3. lightandshadowpress.com
4. agentwithstyle.com
5. katspace.org
6. fanlore.org
7. geocities.com/jjjean65
8. (non-fannish use)
9. kelesa.net
10. (non-fannish use)
11. liquidfic.net
12. (non-fannish use)
13. (non-fannish use)
14. (non-fannish use)
15. debwalsh.com
16. robinofsherwood.com
17. querycat.com
18. adventurezines.com
19. (non-fannish use)
20. groups.yahoo.com
21. groups.yahoo.com (different list)
22. (non-fannish use)
23. (non-fannish use)
24. (in Russian)
25. (in Russian)
26. (non-fannish use)
27. (non-fannish use)
28. (non-fannish use)
29. (non-fannish use)
30. yasni.de
31. (in Russian)
32. (in Russian)
33. (in Russian)
34. directory-www.89.com
35. (in Russian)

So, discarding the non-fannish and Russian-language ones, that's 17 individual uses of "multimedia zines" on the internet. They do all appear to be using it to mean multifannish, and some are using it in reference to modern fandoms (CSI, etc.) But I would still hardly call something with 17 unique hits on the entire internet to be a term that's "in widespread use."

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Well, it's certainly enough to qualify it as an obscure fandom, yes?

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

... How do you mean?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Zine fandom has enough sites documented to qualify as a snall, obscure fandom, so it's in the minority here; current and active, yes, but not on a huge livejournal scale.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I don't really understand what "qualifying as a small fandom" means in this context. We're not trying to determine whether "multimedia" is a fandom,.

In my mind, the question is this: Do enough people currently, *actively* use the term "multimedia" to mean "contains multiple fandoms," that it should be one of the term's major definitions on fanlore?

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no." Seventeen google hits, many of which are on old/dead sites, indicates to me that the term "multimedia" to mean "contains multiple fandoms" is a term that is not actively in use.

Like I've said, I'm perfectly happy to note it as an alternate usage and as a historical term, but if people want fanlore to say that it is a *widely used term* that is *currently* used by many, many people, then it's still a case of [citation needed]. Because my research, and sab's poll, seems to indicate that it "multimedia" not *currently* a term that is widely used to mean "contains many fandoms."

And like the poll indicates-- it's not even just that people don't use it, it's that they've *never heard it* used to mean that. I mean, I use "femslash" rather than "saffic," but if I put up a poll on my lj, I bet most people would have at least *heard of* "saffic." And yet the femslash entry isn't "Femslash or saffic," it's just femslash, because that's the most widely used term.

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

What I am saying is that the term is widely used within a small, minority community, so we need to be inclusive of the definition. That means a page that includes the definition, another page to disambiguate it, and a third to have the most popular definition listed--which is what we have. But the minority definition exists, it is used by a small population but one active in their community which is not on LJ, and we need to be alert for wording or phrasing that would privilege either the minority over the majority or the majority over the minority. We need to strive for everyone having a voice.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

What I am saying is that the term is widely used within a small, minority community,

*Where* is it widely used? Where is the community that uses it?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I was saying that within that minority zine community, the term was widely used.

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

So I have no problem with THREE separate entities, one for "multimedia," one with "multimedia - zine fandom" and one with "multifandom" where the latter will cover most of what we have come to know as miltifandom.

The "multimedia (zine fandom)" and "multimedia" will need a "multimedia" diasambiguation: "did you mean multimeda referring to multiple types of media", or "did you want multimedia as it pertains to zine fandom" which would, at that point redirect toward either the more-common "art" usage and the less-common "multifandom" meanings.

The separate "multifandom" entry should obviously have a see also: multimedia, as well as including the history of the term "multimedia" which came about during the zine administration.

Does anyone else think this works?

ETA:</b This is way too skinny and on the side; I am going to move it over to the talk page.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

So we don't disagree, then.

Do enough people currently, *actively* use the term "multimedia" to mean "contains multiple fandoms," that it should be one of the term's major definitions on fanlore?

No.

Therefore, should it instead be briefly noted as an alternate historical usage on the main "multifandom" page, which should be renamed "multifandom" and not "multifandom or multimedia," since "multimedia" is not actually in current widespread use?

Yes.

If someone wants to argue that it *is* a term in current, widespread use, [citation needed].

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Do enough people currently, *actively* use the term "multimedia" to mean "contains multiple fandoms," that it should be one of the term's major definitions on fanlore?

Ah, see that's where we differ. My version of the question is: "Does the size of the fandom matter in determining what should or should not be included in the wiki?"

And the answer to that is 'no', but with some qualifications. If there is only one story in yuletide and no permanent archive, maybe that information should be collected into an 'obscure fandoms' page, but it should still be collected. So 17 webpages, including current stories being published? a 30 year history of the term? An active mailing list (Zinelist on yahoogroups)? Oh, yeah, that's worth it. It definitely should be respected and included in the wiki, and we need to make sure we don't marginalize them.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't disagree with that, but "multimedia" isn't a fandom, it's a term.

And I don't see how describing the actual history of the term is "marginalizing" it.

If I say "The Professionals fandom is not as active as it used to be," is that marginalizing it? No, it's true.

If I say "People used to read all their fic in zines, but now zines are kind of in a lull because most fic goes on the internet," is that marginalizing it? No, it's true.

If the "multifandom" entry is titled "multifandom," because that is the most accurate term that is *currently in use*, and it includes a short note, "this used to be covered under the term 'multimedia' but it is rarely called this any more," is that really marginalizing it? How is it marginalizing it to say "this term is very rarely used any more?" It's *true*.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Yes, multimedia is a term, but it has a different definition in a minority fandom than it does in the majority fandom here. And I do think it is worth respecting that fandom and including that definition on an equal level with a large fandom or a large community. I don't think the size of the fandom base matters, and my preference is to give the nod to a fannish definition over a non-fannish one, and in the case where there are two fannish definition, to include them both. Even when one of the fandoms is huge (LJ) and the other is 17 websites, a mailing list, and the definition of a term different from the one that most people on LJ use or have even heard of.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

OK, then why isn't the femslash page called "Femslash aka saffic aka altfic aka f/f?"

Because the guideline seems to be to go with the term most people use.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

oh, that's because that page was developed early on. Aristide/Mariread Triste is similar, except that because of the slash, it developed a subpage, which would be an unfortunate side effect in this situation. We're still in beta and our naming conventions aren't perfect.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Well, do you honestly think that's going to be the best naming convention to go with? Every page where there are different terms should be "A aka B aka C aka D aka E aka F aka G" ad infinitum, as long as someone can find even a dozen uses of that term that have *ever been used, ever* on the entire internet?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

If the "multifandom" entry is titled "multifandom," because that is the most accurate term that is *currently in use*, and it includes a short note, "this used to be covered under the term 'multimedia' but it is rarely called this any more," is that really marginalizing it? How is it marginalizing it to say "this term is very rarely used any more?" It's *true*.

The way it is phrased tells the people who are into the fandom that their input isn't valued. 'but rarely called this any more' is a very dismissive phrase, and it does marginalize and trivialize the people who use currently use the term multimedia to mean multifandom.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

The way it is phrased tells the people who are into the fandom that their input isn't valued.

... What fandom? Again, we're not talking about a fandom, we're talking about a term.

'but rarely called this any more' is a very dismissive phrase, and it does marginalize and trivialize the people who use currently use the term multimedia to mean multifandom.

I honestly don't understand how it is dismissive to accurately describe the evolution of a fannish term over time.

"Stackhouse/Markham was a popular pairing during early seasons of Stargate Atlantis, but it is rarely written any more." Is that dismissive, or is it true?

How is it dismissive to truthfully state that a term that is used on exactly 17 sites on the *entire internet* is rarely used?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but we are talking about a fandom that uses a particular definition of a term.

"Stackhouse/Markham was a popular pairing during early seasons of Stargate Atlantis, but it is rarely written any more."
Both dismissive and true. If I was the lone Stackhouse/Markham writer in the fandom, and I had just completed my megalithic, 225,000 word story of their undying love, I might get a little upset at having it so lightly dismissed. If you stopped at
"Stackhouse/Markham was a popular pairing during early seasons of Stargate Atlantis, and added something like "the last S/M story 'hot date on the balcony' was posted to community MarkxStack in 2006.", that's not dismissive to me; those are both facts.