making up fannish stuff, for posterity and beyond!

[sab]

All you all should be coming over to help edit fanlore.org. It's very easy to log in, and then those of us who toil over there would love some toiling help. For example, there's hardly any info on the "West Wing" page; come fill it up, and bring your favorite fics!

Also, for semantics purposes; help me with these questions below? Answer with the term you would most frequently use, or answer with the term you have most frequently heard if you don't prefer one answer over the other.

[Poll #1296784]

ETA: Comments! Keep 'em coming!

Love,
Sab

Comments

[elynross.livejournal.com]

If, over a period of time, usage changed so that the majority of fans were using "slash" to mean "any non-conventional pairing," that would seem more comparable, to me, than the comparison actually is. Some fans do use slash to mean that, but it's not widespread, nor has it been a change, as is the case, in my experience, with "multimedia" and "multifandom."

With "multimedia," at one point that was the term used for multifandom zines and vids. Now, the more common term may be "multifandom," but both terms are still in use. Again, in my experience.

I don't honestly know exactly how wikis generally work, but it seems to me it would work to either have separate pages, with "multifandom" giving the basic definition, with essentially a "see also" ref to "multimedia," while the page for the latter gave early usage, common definition, and a "see also" to multimedia. Alternatively, a single page that gives the history of usage, explaining that both are still in use, although multifandom seems to dominate.

Neither option would, to me, privilege one or the other. From my understanding of what's been talked about, the latter case is what was primarily under consideration. I guess I really don't understand the controversy, since the wiki can contain both understanding/interpretations/experiences.

As for slash meaning "any non-conventional pairing," seems to me the page for slash should definitely include that some people use the term this way, but that it's not the common usage.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I guess I really don't understand the controversy, since the wiki can contain both understanding/interpretations/experiences.

*shrugs* The controversy is basically that people are taking a term that is not, currently, widely in use, a term that is actively *confusing* to a lot of people (see all the comments here on the poll, and comments on the talk page on the wiki as well) and arguing that because *they* still use it, then it should be used on the fanlore wiki as if it *is* commonly in use, and widely understood to mean the same thing as the currently used term, when that is factually not the case. I find it hard to understand how *that* isn't a prime example of privileging the experiences of one group of fans over others.

As for slash meaning "any non-conventional pairing," seems to me the page for slash should definitely include that some people use the term this way, but that it's not the common usage.

Well, it does.

[lian-li.livejournal.com]

'and widely understood to mean the same thing as the currently used term,'

Hm. Again, I get something different from the conversation -- the argument is that it still *is* in use, and treating it as a historical artifact is inaccurate. I need to read that discussion page again.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

the argument is that it still *is* in use, and treating it as a historical artifact is inaccurate.

Well, two things.

(1) I'm not arguing it should be a "historical artifact," what I'm arguing is that the use of terms on the wiki should *generally* reflect the use of the terms in fandom. So yes, on the pages describing zines or vid shows, if an article or link is referring to a specific zine or vid show that was called "multimedia" at the time it was published/shown, then it should still be called "multimedia" on the wiki. (And a link to the section on the multimedia page explaining that this is a synonym of "multifandom" would do a lot to clear up any confusion on the part of people who've never head that term before.)

Similarly, things currently described as multifandom should be described as multifandom on the wiki. (For instance, on the Yuletide main page, it says "Yuletide is a .... multifandom secret fiction exchange,") so it should be described as "multifandom."

(2) If the argument is that it is still in use, then (and this is like the tenth time I've said this) then citation is still needed.

So far, this is what we've got in this thread:

-- sab's poll and the comments in this thread tend to indicate that at least among lj fans with sab on their flist, "multimedia" is an unfamiliar term

-- "multimedia zine" is used on Agent with Style's website (cite provided by wickedwords)

-- that specific phrase is used on 16 other individual sites on the internet (cite provided by me)

-- flummery used the phrase "multimedia vid show" in a VVC post in 2007 (cite provided by ratcreature)

-- elynross said that she had seen some citations in private email.

So that's where we're at.

Cites, as requested

[aka-arduinna.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's more:

multi-media zines for sale by flummery (http://flummery.livejournal.com/22421.html#cutid20), 2005 (me, actually -- I'm half of Flummery)

Zinelist (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zinelist) -- Join the list and search for "multimedia", then again for "multi-media". I came up with a combined ~950 or so results. (The list started in January 2002, so I think all of those hits count -- also, it has a rule in place that you don't conduct business onlist, so most will be top-level posts, not people replying with the terms in the quoted material.)

I'll find you cites from other lists if you want -- e.g., I just found one on Boston_Legal_Slash from 2006 where someone is talking about having asked Mysti to publish a multimedia deathfic zine. But you'd have to join the lists to read them, because I'm not posting them to the web, sorry.

Eastern Media Con (http://www.easternmediacon.southroad.com/); the description both on this page and the email flyers I got for it is: "EMC2 is a fan-run multimedia convention sponsored by Light & Shadow Press." The con started in 2007, and was held for the second time in early October 2008.

Links to various fiction archives from Heliopolis (http://www.sg1-heliopolis.com/links.php), with a mix of terms including "multimedia", "multi-media", and "multifandom" (ff.net is called a "multimedia archive" here)

I assume that publishing or agenting multimedia zines that are called multimedia zines counts as "actively using the term"? You said "in recent years", so I arbitrarily picked 2002 as my cutoff date, since that's when the switch to LJ was happening.

Home page for Neon Rainbow Press (http://www.neonrainbowpress.com/index.htm), including a list of zines they intend to put out for Mediawest 2009, for which they plan to publish three multimedia zines.

multimedia defined on the glossary page of Neon Rainbow Press (http://www.neonrainbowpress.com/glossary.htm).

flyer for a now-sold-out multimedia slash zine from 2003 (http://lightandshadowpress.com/multimedia.html) from Light and Shadow Press

flyer for a multimedia gen zine that includes Supernatural, NCIS, and NUMB3RS (http://www.agentwithstyle.com/brotherhood.htm) (linked off Mysti's Multimedia zines (http://www.agentwithstyle.com/multimed.htm) page. Mysti's an agent, not just a publisher, so these zines are published by a variety of publishers.)

flyer for another multimedia gen zine that includes Supernatural (http://www.agentwithstyle.com/chinook05.htm) (linked off Mysti's Multimedia zines page)

flyer for a multimedia slash zine that includes CSI:Miami (http://www.agentwithstyle.com/deck-the.htm), again from Mysti's mm page.

flyer for a multimedia slash zine that includes the movies Signs and Velvet Goldmine (http://www.agentwithstyle.com/homo7.htm), again from Mysti's page.

flyer for a multimedia slash zine that includes Stargate Atlantis, NCIS, and Demon Under Glass (http://www.agentwithstyle.com/mosaic13.htm), again from Mysti's page. This one is not only a multimedia zine, but lists "multimedia" as the "fandom" for one story.

Okay, I'm not going to keep looking on Mysti's site. *g* But she also regularly posts zine announcements to dozens of lists, many of which include "multimedia" or "multi-media" zines (she's not consistent), so certainly it's likely that many people on all those lists are familiar with the term and how it's used.

Moving on:

multimedia slash zines agented by Kathy Resch (http://www.morgandawn.com/kathy_resch_multi.htm); page last updated in July 2005

listing of TS publishers, including some who publish multi-media (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4778/SentinelZinesFirst.htm) -- I'm not sure if this will count for you, since it's from 2002, but next to each publisher's name is a list of what types of zines they publish, including several instances of "multi-media".

(ran out of space!)

So that's LJ, email, webpage, and convention use, to describe vids, zines, archives, and fannish gatherings.

Enough to convince you that people actually do use the term?

more cites

[aka-arduinna.livejournal.com]

There are more cites here (http://iamsab.livejournal.com/420363.html?thread=2802699#t2802699). I repeated the link to Eastern Media Con and to Zinelist, but every other link is new, including one to an artist who uses the term for her cartoons.

Should I keep looking?

do you need more?

[aka-arduinna.livejournal.com]

See, here's the thing. When Penknife told you that multiple fans on the wiki were explaining how "multimedia" has been and is used in fandom, and you replied with that charming little:

*shrugs*

[citation needed]

I was one of the people you basically called a liar. I was pretty damn offended by it. But I tried very hard to ignore the offense and provide what you so dismissively demanded, rather than trusting that other fans might actually be more aware of their own corners of fandom than you are.

I'm now completely ticked off, because after all of your dismissive attitude and demand for cites, when someone actually *gives* them to you, you can't even show the simple courtesy of replying to the simple question of whether this has been enough to convince you.

I am sincerely asking you to tell me if I have provided enough cites to convince you that yes, people outside your own personal circle do, in fact, use the word "multimedia" to mean "many fandoms".

If not, I will provide more -- I have a long list, from LJ to websites to mailing lists, including slashsn and ClarkLex; I have cites from as recently as late October 2008, sent to a Stargate SG-1 mailing list with about 1,000 members. I have more MM zines currently asking for submissions.

Do I need to post them? Or are you satisfied that I was not, in fact, making it all up?

Re: do you need more?

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I apologize for not replying to this comment sooner. I honestly didn't mean to ignore you.

I have a bad habit of avoiding conversations that have gotten heated, especially if I'm the one who's behaved badly, which I clearly was, to wickedwords.

Sometimes, I am honestly kinda ashamed to admit, I block the responses to the conversation in my gmail, so I won't even see them and be tempted to go back and behave even more badly out of defensiveness or a compulsive desire to get the last word, which I know is one of my bad habits. So that's what I did this time. And I honestly didn't see these replies until just this moment. So again, I apologize for ignoring you. I shouldn't have flipped out on wickedwords, but I also shouldn't have ducked out of the conversation afterwards and proceeded to ignore it for two weeks. *sigh*

I also apologize if anything I said implied that you guys were lying or making things up. I was *never* trying to say that. I think both Sab and I were coming from the same place-- we were trying to do research ourselves, whether through a poll or an internet search, because we weren't getting any cites any other way, and we kept asking for *cites*, and no one was providing them, and it was very, very frustrating.

I was honestly bewildered, because *I couldn't find anything myself* to support these assertions. I really, really did want someone to tell me, "no, look *here* and *here* and *here,* this is where it's still actively in use." So, seriously, not snarkily at all, thank you for providing these cites.

Honestly, it comes down to this. I think if people are going to be participants in a wiki, they need to be prepared to cite their assertions, even if it's something as totally obvious as "Clark/Lex was a popular pairing in SV fandom." If someone asked me to cite that, I wouldn't take that as them accusing me of making things up. So again, I wasn't trying to do that and I'm sorry it came off that way.

In conclusion, I'm sorry again for being bitchy to various people in this thread and then effectively ignoring you for two weeks. I never thought you were making things up, but I do think it's important to cite things.

(Thank you for your edits to the vvc articles, by the way. I want to do more work on them but I'm not going to be editing anything on fanlore until my Yuletide story is submitted.)