things that are gay

[sab]

I'm just being a clearinghouse, for a moment, mostly so I only have one LJ link to Memory. Anyway, here's some stuff from the world:

[open-minded Jews in Portland who aren't gay]
[What, no hellfire? I was promised hellfire!]
[Gay mittens]
[B5 ficathon, um, super-gay]
[device of the future! maybe fantastic! In a sort of post-apocalyptic Big Brotheresque way. Or, maybe gay.]

That being said, I have another question. To the righties on my Trusted list, or, rather, the Righties whose opinions I trust:

Do you -- or any conservative-types in fandom you know -- have you, hm. The question is, do you know anyone who's comfortable with slash, writing it/reading it, while not comfortable with homosexuality as a practice in her real life? Someone who could write about Duncan and Methos getting it on, but who'd be squicked if she learned she had a gay friend?

Additionally -- how does this hold over for gay marriage? pene enlightened me on the subject once when, in her more Christian days (G, *g*), she commented that she "believed in" homosexuals ('cause, duh, there they are), but she didn't support pre-marital sex, THEREFORE, the option left to her was to support gay marriage.

Of course, this was before the big gay agenda, perpetuated by the liberal media elite, swept G off her feet with the use of porn and evil temptresses and, um, whiskey, probably, and made G supergay in that insidious way we have of taking otherwise innocent people and gayifying them while they're not looking. Poor unsuspecting pene. *g*

Anyway. I'm wondering how that holds over for conservatives not of the religious bent, wondering -- first, if there IS a set of slash writers who are uncomfortable with homosexuality in the "real world" but not in fiction, then -- why that is, exactly. And just, in general, wondering what people think. Responses from all sides welcomed, please and thank you.

Comments

[queerbychoice.livejournal.com]

There was a really long angry entry posted somewhere on LJ ranting about a slash writer having announced that she opposed same-sex marriage. Unfortunately, however, I cannot remember the URL to it or who wrote it. But it got lots of people linking to it, so somebody around here will probably know what I'm talking baout.

[gem225.livejournal.com]

I remember one that might qualify, although in my opinion it wasn't angry. It was a calm and rational entry by wayfairer, but the entry isn't public any more.

[queerbychoice.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that you mean the same entry that I mean. Although I can't imagine describing the entry I'm referring to as "calm," my description of it as "angry" was also not in the least intended to imply that it wasn't a perfectly rational anger. Anyway, I'm pretty sure wayfairer is the person who wrote the entry I'm thinking of.

BratQueen..?

[inapickle.livejournal.com]

There was something just recently by The Brat Queen that was certainly an angry rant about people who enjoy watching or reading about gays but who think we're second-class citizens.

[pene.livejournal.com]

hah. insidious!

now I'll just run off and find some naked chick and have supergay sex. laughing and blushing.

mmm. supergay.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I am not of the Right, nor do I play someone of the Right...well, anywhere, but this:

first, if there IS a set of slash writers who are uncomfortable with homosexuality in the "real world" but not in fiction, then -- why that is, exactly.

Just as there are blacks who are racist against blacks, and Jews who are anti-semitic, I'm sure there are slash writers who are uncomfortable with homosexuality. There's a whole brand of fiction called "smarm" that was popular in TS that (as I heard it, and read it in a couple of instances) the guys emphatically straight, but bathing and (literally) sleeping together, and also French kissing -- but they weren't gay. I know some people view the WNGWJLEO (we're not gay, we just love each other) cliche as being intrinsically homophobic, whereas I would say it could be, but isn't necessarily. When it is, though, it comes across as deeply, deeply disturbed. There's the whole "gay is icky" subtext, but this pair is redeemed by the fact of true, soul-bonding LUV. It's always read to me like the writer has issues they haven't yet worked out, where they feel they have to be against homosexuality in RL, but the appeal of slash is too strong. Human beings are capable of tremendous levels of contradiction.

Also, having finished watching Jeremiah, I now need Yet Another Markus icon, in his suit, that says "Not too much like a demented penguin." Or just "demented penguin." Markus! And penguins! Oh, my!

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

Also, having finished watching Jeremiah, I now need Yet Another Markus icon, in his suit, that says "Not too much like a demented penguin." Or just "demented penguin." Markus! And penguins! Oh, my!


Ask and ye shall receive. Sit tight.

I've been running around with my Markus eyebrows and Markus chin saying "some kind of, demented penguin" for DAYS now. *g*

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

See here. Also see for the other one.

Anti Gay Slash/femSlash Writers?

[innogen.livejournal.com]

Strange, but hard to say.

Ten years ago Slash was only m/m (f/f was considered amateur) and always seemed to be written by straight married women who worked in libraries (and they had 2.4 kids). (Hee!) Now, it's chic to write femSlash, and Slash is considered a standard in the fanfic community (I guess if *we* are setting the standards--kinda like the Indecency Act of 1996 that said standards and mores are set ~according to the local community~).

Funny how the local community isn't local on the Internet, so everything goes now. The only polite thing to do is to attach the proper warnings to what we write (yeah, I helped write a Slash story with a friend once -- two giggling 24 year olds on spring break, with our laptops, and Babylon 5 boys to play with).

Anyway, now *I* have the degree in Library Science (yeah, figure that! no marriage, no kids) and a good Slash story is really hot once in a while. Do I believe that reading Slash makes you Gay? No. Do I believe that writing Slash makes you Gay? No. But it doesn't preclude the possibility. The reader doesn't need to know about the author; the author doesn't need to know about the reader. As creative writers we explore our fantasies too, and as *Imagineers* we build fantasies and stories for others to explore.

If it's possible you have followed my zigzag logic this far -- I just don't think a writer's business is to comment on politics if clearly contradicting his or her own writing. Writing anti-gay spouts on same-sex marriages, or not tolerating a possible new friend because he/she might be bi or gay--and yet write Slash/femSlash? Huh! A disconnect exists and it's not just between my laptop and the internet; something sure is scrambled.

Before appearing hypocritical--best say nothing at all. Stick to creating and not editorializing. Remember this too, gay means happy, free of burdons, spirit uplifted.

Innogen

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

this was before the big gay agenda, perpetuated by the liberal media elite, swept G off her feet with the use of porn and evil temptresses and, um, whiskey, probably, and made G supergay in that insidious way we have of taking otherwise innocent people and gayifying them while they're not looking

Oh, is that what happened? Hm. Watch out for that whiskey.

oh, the stories you'll tell

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

To the righties on my Trusted list, or, rather, the Righties whose opinions I trust:

I'm assuming I'm in with this lot, although I'm mildly curious as to who else would be...

The question is, do you know anyone who's comfortable with slash [snip] while not comfortable with homosexuality as a practice in her real life?

Well, it's not me, really, but I have this friend, y'know, and this friend...

Ahem.

(I'm going to answer this a bit differently than I might, if I wasn't going out of town for a week. So. Cards on the table.)

I note that you go on to clarify the question as 'practiced by other people she knows in real life' rather than 'practiced by her in her real life.'

And I'm *not* sure, exactly, what sort of conclusions we can draw from what we read/what we find is hot to read, vs what we find non-squicking in RL. Partly because I'm not sure what relationship this has (as I've said before at length) and partly because I get the impression from many of the bib'philes on my reading list that it's how the author tells the story rather than the actual plot.

As for me, well...Yes, I write (a little) and read (more than a little) slash - m/m more than f/f. I have friends (not acquaintences) of both genders het and not in orientation. (Plus all you crazies out in lj land.)

There are friends who, if they were to announce they were gay, I would fall down laughing. And some that such an announcement would greatly disturb me, 'cause, hey, four years crawling the same bars after guys, two kids and eight years married to a guy (and you never ever hit on *me*, bitch!) would leave me to wonder, with unease, just *what* was going on in their heads.

Other friends, not so much with the shock or the upset.

As for actual physical details squicking me, well, yeah. Because het or not, some things I do not Need To Know. And some pictures I do not need in my head. Love them dearly as a friend or buddy, do *not* need to see them neekid and flag a-flying.

And, with all that, I am not supporting same-sex marriage. Due more to an extreme case of reactionary knuckle-dragging re: what I consider marriage about and for than the actual gayness of it. But there might be some of that mixed in, too.

I completely get the contradiction between 'don't have sex unless you're married' and the 'but if you're gay you can't get married' camps. Meaning that I know it's a contradiction, and I'm still trying to muddle my way out of it.

When I make up my mind as to what I (and hence the rest of the world *g*) should think on this, I'll let you know.

But hey. Bring on the whiskey and the evil temptresses - especially the whiskey - and we'll see how well it works. (kidding. really.)

first, if there IS a set of slash writers who are uncomfortable with homosexuality in the "real world" but not in fiction, then -- why that is, exactly.

Ummm. Because one is a story and one is real life, and we apply different standards to our own behavior than we do to the characters we write?

'Standards' isn't, quite, the best word here. Qualities, perhaps. We can write about characters that go off and fight in interstellar wars, knowing full well that given the chance, we ourselves would point our spaceship in *exactly* the opposite direction. We write a character that longs to have a child while we view the topic with something like 'acck! Not me!' And so on.

We are not the characters we write. We are not the characters we read. It is *not* required, I think, that I be Danish, royalty, male, living in the 1400's or actively searching for my father's murderer for me to feel the pain, confusion and bitter despair of Hamlet. Nor was ol Mr Bill, either, now that I think on it. Except the male part. (And there are people who will debate that with you.)

And the human part.

Take genre far enough, though, and we're not talking 'human' anymore. So, it's a Klingon on the screen, does that mean we can't cheer or boo him/her on? I'm not thinking so. And it doesn't, I think, mean that we would have to endorse the Klingon pattern of 'kill first, torture the corpse'. Or even want our best friend to marry one.

So. There you go. Muddled and every thing. You did ask.

- hossgal

Re: oh, the stories you'll tell

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

To the righties on my Trusted list, or, rather, the Righties whose opinions I trust:

I'm assuming I'm in with this lot, although I'm mildly curious as to who else would be...

You are indeed, and thanks for responding. See: hobsonphile, at least, and one or two more possibly floating below the radar that I wouldn't want to (correctly or incorrectly) out.

Honestly, I was feeling around more for a general idea of kink than for political bias one way or the other -- which is to say, I was curious if there are people who find FICTIONAL gay characters hot, while finding actual gay people reprehensible. Which is very loaded and, in your response at least, and probably across the board, it's nowhere near as cut and dried. Still, I was curious.

Additionally, while the religious and political perspectives on this issue are often intertwined, there's (I imagine) a set of people who are not religious who also don't approve of homosexuality, and I wondered where that was coming from.

And, with all that, I am not supporting same-sex marriage. Due more to an extreme case of reactionary knuckle-dragging re: what I consider marriage about and for than the actual gayness of it. But there might be some of that mixed in, too.

I completely get the contradiction between 'don't have sex unless you're married' and the 'but if you're gay you can't get married' camps. Meaning that I know it's a contradiction, and I'm still trying to muddle my way out of it.

Yes, that's a tough one, as is the question of amending the Constituion in general vs. this particular amendment and everything that comes with it. And I've found that to be especially interesting when it's the typically reactionary folk, or the typically non-progressive folk who support this amendment when after thirty years we still haven't passed the ERA. So it's personally baffling to me, the argument, at least, but not exactly what I was trying to figure out in this post.

elynross makes an interesting point about smarm!fic, or Very Best Friends in fic who snuggle and love each other but don't have sex. In some cases this is purely innocuous and a creative choice for characters that, for whatever reason, just ain't gay. And there are plenty of canon characters I wouldn't slash because *I* can't see them as gay.

It's another question when people are uncomfortable slashing characters because they find the idea of being gay degrading, or offensive.

Which caused me to wonder if there are folks who *do* find queerness degrading, offensive, repugnant, but write/read slash anyhow. And if so -- is it for the kink? Is it like...watching a train wreck? And isn't that sort of incredibly offensive itself?

Me, I'm thinking aloud here, and not, of course, attributing any of this to you.

We are not the characters we write. We are not the characters we read. It is *not* required, I think, that I be Danish, royalty, male, living in the 1400's or actively searching for my father's murderer for me to feel the pain, confusion and bitter despair of Hamlet. Nor was ol Mr Bill, either, now that I think on it. Except the male part. (And there are people who will debate that with you.)

This, I couldn't agree more. But it is necessary to have an amount of respect for your characters and their choices, particularly as a writer. Alternately, you write the story where Crichton decides he's gay and hates himself for it and/or tries to fight it because he finds it reprehensible, which, while squicky, at least is honest, right?

In other words, it's one thing for a straight girl to say, "I'm not gay, but if you are, it's cool with me." (Which you seem to be saying above) And then slash is enjoyable, for the reason it is for so many, as a window into a hot hot world.

It's quite another thing to say "I'm not gay, and I think if you're gay you're going straight to hell," and then to read or write slash. Simply because I imagine it causes a moral crisis for the writer/reader there, having a hard time marrying her kinks to her moral or religious convictions. And I wondered -- addressing those people exactly -- how that worked.

THanks so much for your honest response. A lot to chew on.