(no subject)

[sab]

shaye said, in response to my last post:

I think the most insidious part of this whole thing is the implication that you're dragging him down, man. If you weren't "this way" everything would be roses in his life. What a moron.

Well, that's precisely the crux of it. He is fragile, needs a strong partner to help him, wants to help me be strong. Genuinely believes this is a kind and loving approach to the matter. "Tough love," maybe, but he's got his masculine ego to appease.

I asked him if he thought all our relationship problems would be solved if I were "more reliable," which is to say, woke up earlier, returned phone calls promptly, showed up on time. He said yes, he believed that would solve everything.

For HIM, maybe. Note, he didn't indicate how that would solve our relationship problems for ME.

That's a bit of my own fault though, because when he asks me what I want from the relationship (this doesn't happen often), or when we discuss it, there's always a lot of crying and apologizing after which he likes to roll his eyes and complain how he wasted so much time he could have better spent getting work done.

Were I to bring up now any of these matters I've discussed with you marvelous LJ folk, he'd tell me he couldn't deal with it now, he's really busy, I'm trying to make it all about me, I'm wasting his time.

So -- is it easier NOT to waste his time and just cut him loose? If that's the case, how do I say, "And by the way I'm not gonna walk your dog and house-sit for you for the five days you're gone" without that sounding passive-aggressive and like I'm whining? (When, of course, I am NOT)

Or do I wait till after he goes away for the weekend, trust that he'll come back more level-headed, and explain my feelings to him in a clear and non-hysterical manner and hope he's not too fragile or too busy to listen.

At the risk of sounding girly (and around these parts, that's the kiss of death), I find he doesn't go out of his way to pay attention to me. But it's this very left-handed manner where I ask "can I come over?" and he says, "Of course! You're always welcome here!" and in fact he gave me a key to his place. But when I show up he breezes around doing his own thing and I just sit there like furniture.

On the other hand, if I try to say, in a very level-headed manner, "is there a time when I can come over and you'll be able to pay attention to me?" he'll accuse me of being a needy, hysterical woman that he can't "deal with right now."

So. For example. We've talked on the phone a couple times today. He's been doing other things. I sent him a lengthy e-mail asking if there was a chance I'd get to see him before he left for Portland. His response, in its gleeful entirety:

"GOOD MORNING!!!!!"

Which was of course how I'd BEGUN my e-mail, but there were some words after that. That he chose not to address because he's too busy and preoccupied.

What should I do TODAY? Tomorrow?

Dear god I love you all so much. I can't thank you enough. If I can soften my skin or eat a sandwich for any of you, just say the word.

Comments

[gem225.livejournal.com]

Today? Leave the shit.

Tomorrow? Stay away from the shit.

*thinks* Yeah, I think that covers it.

[pene.livejournal.com]

and this from Gail, the sweetest girl we know.

[gem225.livejournal.com]

Thank you. :-D You're wonderful, both to say that and because you just are.

[gem225.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to sound cold and brusque in my previous comment, but I don't like the sound of this guy, and I don't like the thought of you interacting with him, and I think that your friends are right. Please take care of yourself and leave him. Please.

*hugs*

[qowf.livejournal.com]

The way you do this, the only way to do this, is to stop contact with him. Stop it.

You don't call. You don't return his calls. You don't talk to him, you don't see him. If you do see him, it's in a public place. I say you should do it right now. You should not spend another day agonizing about this. Leave now. Start focusing on you.

The reason for this lack of contact is because with someone who is a gifted manipulator, they can get you doubting yourself quickly. He knows your buttons, he's happy to push them. You wouldn't let yourself go near a person who was threatening your physical health; well, this guy is threatening your self-esteem and your confidence in a similar way. You walk away from it. You don't look back. You don't answer emails, you *don't engage.*

If you engage, he'll get you.

It's hard. I know. It's so so so hard. You can do it, though. The first week will be the toughest. You talk to us. You make plans and you keep them with other people. You reach out and you'll find a sea of hands reaching back.

Love you. Be strong. Get out of this. Really.

[jood.livejournal.com]

YES. Listen to this sage advice.

He is playing you, expecting you to continue to be a fine and good human being and to continue to care about him when he shows you through both words and actions that you clearly do not register on his Important Things meter. Do not be fooled by his appearance of sweetness. He has shown you his real feelings already, and they contradict every friendly half-assed gesture he makes.

Do not prolong it. Rip off the band aid now. It will sting for a while and then it won't.

You are not a bad person - nor a petty one - for not taking care of his shit while he's away. He's not your responsibility. If he wants to treat you like a burden rather than as a gift, then the inconveniences he experiences after you leave are HIS problem, not yours.

You are so close to doing exactly the right thing. Go forth and do.

Hugz of strength to you.

[dashenka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what those two women said. Seriously, you don't need manipulative like this. You don't need controlling. In my mind, it's on that fuzzy-wuzzy border and on one side is emotional abuse. Maybe I'm hypersensitive to that stuff because I work in the domestic violence thing, but the contstant put-downs, the blaming you for his problems, those are all big big warning signs of someone who likes to abuse his power. Yuck, who needs that? You can do ever so much better, sweetheart.

[cofax7]

I think you should send him an email and tell him you can't watch his dogs while he's gone. But I'm a cold-hearted bitch.

And then throw your stuff into a bag, hug the dogs, and go home.

Leave the key on the kitchen table.

Suggested text of the email? "I can't do this anymore. I'm leaving. You will need to find someone to watch your dogs while you're in Portland. Good luck, and give my love to your wonderful little boy."

There is no way to explain it to him in any way that he will understand. Don't waste the energy trying.

[jood.livejournal.com]

^^^ do exactly this ^^^

Well called, c.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I also agree with this.

I would also consider changing my e-mail address and phone number so he couldn't reach me for a while.

Because he WILL call you up to try to manipulate you further. He WILL try to turn people against you so they'll feel sorry for him, starting with VHI Chica and on to other professional contacts of BOTH of you.

Get out of his circle.

[noelleleithe.livejournal.com]

I would change one word: "I won't do this any more." Because it's you making a choice.

Get your stuff and go.

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

Jeez, this is deja vu. I'm sorry, I'm going to sound harsh, and honestly, I haven't been keeping up with all of the details you've posted about this stuff. I'm simply reacting to this single post, OK? And I'm human, and fallible.

But this is deja vu for me.

You're not a needy hysterical woman. You're not expecting more than you deserve when you want him to pay attention to you. You're not being an irrational headcase when you demand that he recognize that some of the relationship problems are his, some of them are yours, and some of them are both of yours.

Do whatever you want about the dogs, but get away from him. I've been you. I was you a couple years ago, and it's finally now that I'm getting off my ass and getting out of the detrimental mess that the relationship turned into after that, despite hours and hours and tons of effort and angst and hurt feelings and exhaustion... to fix it and untangle years of interdependence.

If he doesn't even recognize that the relationship's problems aren't only the inconveniences that annoy him, it's doomed. He doesn't see you or your needs at all.

Get. Out.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Elke is so, so right here.

And you need to think about this part: You're not a needy hysterical woman. You're just *not*, Em. He may be right about some of the things he thinks about you, or only a little bit off base on others, but that? You're the person I know who I'd vote "least likely to develop a "needy hysterical woman" complex. It's not you. It's him.

-J

[pene.livejournal.com]

snicker. truly. Em needy and hysterical within a relationship? heh.

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

I'm sitting here telling myself, "I'm not a needy hysterical woman, and I haven't been. I'm not expecting more than I deserve when I want him to pay attention to me, and I haven't been. I was not being an irrational headcase when I demanded that he recognize that some of the relationship problems were his, some of them were mine, and some of them were both of ours."

I didn't even realize until recently that I was actually starting to doubt... starting to think that some of his statements about me were true. And in doing so, I made them true. We have the power to be who we want ourselves to be, and when we envision ourselves powerless and weak, we can become so.

When we envision ourselves bright and true, we can become so. It's not easy when you've got a strong mental image of yourself as a basketcase, though. :-P

And I still haven't figured out where I'm going to move to. But I'm getting out of this relationship, and I'm getting out of this apartment complex, and it's all going to be fine. Real soon now.

{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}

[lenadances.livejournal.com]

Don't know you at all, but I've got hugs to spare. So {{{{Elke}}}}. Good luck. You can do it.

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

I asked him if he thought all our relationship problems would be solved if I were "more reliable," which is to say, woke up earlier, returned phone calls promptly, showed up on time. He said yes, he believed that would solve everything.

But that's not true. He may even believe it, but it's not true. Even if you were "reliable" - even if you woke up earlier, returned calls promptly, were on time and did other wonderful career-boosting things to boot, he wouldn't be okay with himself and he'd find something new that was wrong with you. The only way your relationship problems would be solved is if he came to terms with you the way you are. Not only would that solve things for him, it would solve them for you.

It sounds convenient for him to blame his problems with his career on your lack of reliability. If he were genuinely worried about you, he wouldn't blame you for bringing him down, even if, say, what he really meant was "I'm worried about you and it's distracting me. Stop it." (See how crazy that sounds?)

I've avoided commenting on this thus far, but I think the others are right. Get out, even though it hurts.

[corianderstem.livejournal.com]

I won't even pretend to know what to do here, but whatever you decide, good luck with it. Be strong, and more hugs to you. Uh, if you ever need free coffee or a box of smoked salmon or something from Seattle, just say the word. ;-)

[lenadances.livejournal.com]

I asked him if he thought all our relationship problems would be solved if I were "more reliable," which is to say, woke up earlier, returned phone calls promptly, showed up on time. He said yes, he believed that would solve everything.

Right, because clearly the only problems in this relationship are the inconveniences that you caused by being so unreliable. Right. Right. Jesus, this has made me so angry I can't see straight. That sorry egotistical jackasshole son of a BITCH.

For HIM, maybe. Note, he didn't indicate how that would solve our relationship problems for ME.

What, *you* can have problems? But he's clearly perfect. And since he's perfect, you can't possibly have problems with him. ::eyes roll completely out of head:: I repeat: son of a BITCH.

That's a bit of my own fault though,

::HITS BUZZER:: You know, unless you're pulling a George Tenet here in the "I'm sorry I didn't knock myself silly trying to make things clear to this moron when he was intent on fucking things up, that makes it my fault" way, this is incorrect. It's looking more and more from his e-mails that if he doesn't care to deal with something, he ignores it, and ignores it hard-core. It appears that you've been checking in to see how he's doing and if you can do something for him at least once a day, and apparently it has never occurred to him to check back with you on your needs.

Ya know, that's just not right.

because when he asks me what I want from the relationship (this doesn't happen often), or when we discuss it, there's always a lot of crying and apologizing after which he likes to roll his eyes and complain how he wasted so much time he could have better spent getting work done.

Well, that's certainly the way to a girl's heart. I can see how you'd want to hold onto this one. [/acid voice]

You know what? I have to agree with what Lorrie said the other day: I just don't get what you're getting out of this relationship. It's not hot sex, it's not intimacy, it's not support, it's not admiration, it's not acceptance, it's not unconditional love. Fucked if I know what you're doing here, baby girl.

Today, you leave. I agree with the plans laid out by everyone else: don't even give him a chance to respond. Leave a note and let him bitch and whine about his ex who didn't understand him to the next woman sucked in by his little routine. Let her deal with it, let her get cheated on and get no sex. In the meantime, you go out and go elsewhere and do not, do not, do not talk to this man.

If you forget why you're doing it, we'll be glad to remind you. We're chatty.

Love you, sweetie. Get out, get gone.

[lenadances.livejournal.com]

Also: here's the thing to remember here. While you are in this relationship, you are not in control of it. He's got the steering wheel, he's driving all over the road, and he's sure as hell not asking you for directions. He has the power.

The only power that you unequivocably have in this relationship is to leave. He's going to try to take that power away from you, too, by making you question your own judgement and question your own instincts and make you think you're treating him horribly.

Because spending time with him was so important that he'd never bother setting it up himself.

Because you were so important to him that he'd never ask if there was anything *he* could do for *you*.

Because he loved you so much he would go out to bad-mouth you to other women.

Because he needed you so much that he'd spend lots of quality time ignoring your presence

Because he cared so much about your relationship that he blamed all of its problems on you.

Yeah, it's sure gonna hurt him that you're gone. Sheesh. You deserve better, darlin'.

[furies.livejournal.com]

i have been quiet.

i've met the dreaded MW. sat in his kiddie pool. and i'll say it now, i think it was just a little bit of a convience for both of you. back in la, he's divorced, let's smoke on the roof and drink beer. it was easy and comfortable and you knew how it went.

but that's not how it is now. and it's not convenient anymore. (which i don't think was a good reason in the first place.) and that means i think you should get the fuck out. yes the dog is cute. yes the little pants of the little boy with the name of a future author is adorable.

but em. you're you. and you're so much better than this. you are not the reason that his career is in the dumps, that's his own fucking fault. and everyone loves someone to blame and it seems that you've become his reason. so take that away from him. force him to grow the hell up and realize it's his own shit that is the problem, and take your stuff, all of it. leave your key and say goodbye and mean it. MEAN it em, don't do it if you don't mean it, because then you are just playing his game again.

you can't doubt yourself here. and you shouldn't doubt yourself here. and if you feel alone, or shitty, or whatever, me and everyone else are always here. (becca says hello btw.) you have to do it in one fell swoop and don't look back. and you're my older sister. i know you can do it. so listen to everyone else who are far smarter and wiser than i, and just remember, i love you more than holland loves tulips. and i miss you terribly and cannot wait until you arrive in november. love love love.

[quasiradiant.livejournal.com]

em, all i know is that i've heard a dozen thousand times that i have to do things for myself, the things that make me happy. and, i have to say, discovering that that isn't selfish, that doing things for me is more than okay, it's healthy... has been hard. so i hear what everyone's saying, and i concur.

but i also say: easier said than done. i'm just like you, i cry and get "hysterical" because -- and this is just my reasons for doing so -- i'm fucking terrified for being alone, and the implications of that. you could be and probably are entirely different, but... you have to be sure and confident of your decision when/if you tell him you're leaving. tell him in an email, in a phone message, in a note left on the kitchen table -- do whatever's easiest and safest for you.

we love you. i love you. and i miss you.

[intl-princess.livejournal.com]

I'm little and quiet because I don't know you well enough to be loud, but I'm with LE here. I've been in the bad-relationship-place for a year now. And I've had all the doubts and the rationalizing. And I've had all my friends saying, "leave him and never speak to him again." Maybe you're strong and bright enough to do that and not look back. I hope so.

But if you're not. If you know on the inside that you're beautiful, and bright, and better than all of this, but on the outside you just can't quite let go? Then I know just how you feel. It is *so* much easier said than done.

So my advice is just this. Reclaim yourself little bit by little bit. Find all the things you liked about yourself that you've let go of, put away, or forgotten about because of him. Go and find them and pull them all back together. And gradually, as your life takes over, his approval and his attention becomes a little bit less important. It's been slow for me. But it's working.

Forgive yourself.

[infinitemonkeys.livejournal.com]

Dear E,

It sounds as if he's not kind to you, and even when everything else in a relationship is sour, we deserve kindness.

I think that qowf perhaps has it best. If you drop him, he will begin to be solicitous in order to suck you in again because it sounds rather as though he needs someone to blame for things not going right in his life and he's decided that it's going to be you. If you're not there, it starts to be his responsibility and that's not going to feel good for him.

Frankly, sod his dogs. They might be nice dogs but they're his problem. If you refuse to do it, he is going to call you passive-aggressive and whiny because that's what he has to make you in order to understand why his life is the way it is. It has very little to do with your actual actions in reality

I've only seen this through your LJ entries but I don't think you can help him and it doesn't sound like he's willing to help you. And you deserve kindness.

[onemorelifetime.livejournal.com]

I just have to add one thing to a slew of very wise points:

He seems very selfish to want you to be all about him, to manipulate you like you've described. You are a beautiful girl, m'dear. You certainly deserve better. Good men are hard to find, and he ain't one of 'em.

Use the time you would've spent with him as time to polish your own diamond. Just consider this one more facet carved in you to make you sparkle more brightly.

Go with your gut, babe. You can't go wrong. 25 other people can't be wrong. :)

*B*

My two cents

[mamahippierwc.livejournal.com]

Having just come back to livejournal (man a lot happens in month) I must say this...

Having spent four years with a man who loved himself (I believe more than me at times) and his own ideas of what love should be (and still does)I would say RUN FOREST, RUN! You have been here before and the saying goes fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. You have to love yourself more than this man and this relationship. Partnerships have to be individuals who compliment each others lives enough to work as one. Changing you isn't the issue. You have a lot to offer and you need to respect that. The problems always happen when people try to change each other or assuming they will change. People are who they are. You fall in love with the good, bad and ugly. People don't change because you ask it's because they have made that choice and it is hard ot convenience them. Stand strong and be the you we all love. Fuck him if he can't accept that!